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now make the rats comprehend fascism.
Would be an interesting study if that was possible.
Another run of this experiment found rats free those with the same fur color faster or more readily
huh, that’s definitely an interesting paper to write.
the phrase “the free rat would usually save at least one treat for the captive - which is alot to expect of a rat”…
it clearly isn’t “alot to expect” if it’s automatic normal behavior for their species. It actually implies it’s the normal for a rat. It just isn’t normal for those humans.
I think it means “chocolate chips are precious to rats” by that - ie that it is a big sacrifice.
You don’t see them fuckng each other over for a goddamn percentage!
Almost every creature that lives in a harsh environment understands about looking out for your buddies. The next day, it might be you snapped into the trap. Allies are a precious thing. A lot of people prominent in our society have forgotten, but the rats have not, nor many of the people, either.
Remember this when they start deporting your neighbors next year.
mutual aid: a factor of evolution
rb>c
Today you, tomorrow me.
You made me a little nostalgic, reminding me of when reddit was good. Right around that timeframe was the last days of when it was a human place.
https://aroundincircles.net/tales-from-a-dishonest-used-car-dealership-stories/
Yeah, I sometimes miss Tales From Tech Support. There were some damn good stories in there. The car dealership ones were some of the best.
I like how it started with “lol the car ID has the wrong number of digits” and keeps evolving to the point of sawing cars in half, the car that runs on recycled grease, pure madness.
Well, every social creature. There are plenty of species that don’t give a fuck.
Perhaps most mammals and birds understand empathy, but plenty of animals in classes like reptiles, insects, amphibians, don’t exert almost any empathy as humans understand it.
Yeah, without empathy our current society would never have had existed, sadly greed is often more powerful once basic needs and safety are met.
I’m always mildly concerned about how shocked people are about animals being conscious beings with feelings. Do people really think we are mentally that different from other animals with brains?
I’m more concerned that people believe it’s rare, in both humans and the animal kingdom
Predators will share territory if there’s enough to go around, even forming close relationships across species, sometimes even raising their young together
Empathy is the natural state, unless there’s enough scarcity. Humans are naturally generous, unless we’re raised in an environment of eternal artificial scarcity…
All those rich bastards that are not generous at all must have been raised in a lot of artificial scarcity then. Really artificial since most of them grew up well to do as well.
They spend all their damn lives not even fully comprehending they’re not living in scarcity, because the only resources they’ve ever been taught to focus on are those which are inherently scarce - competing for attention, fame, social status, etc.
Unironically, yes. Daddy’s approval, respect from their peers, relationships based on you and not your money, even basic self respect- they’re raised chasing money to fill the hole, to see it as the value of a person, of themselves
The ones that aren’t cursed with this artificial scarcity? They quietly live their lives however they like, they’re not trying to nickel and dime their way for more. You don’t hear about them much, because why would a mentally healthy person put themselves through that for no reward? Any of them could buy a nice house (or a dozen), pretend to be upper middle class, and live whatever kind of life they want. They could live out of 5 Star hotels and be waited on hand and foot. They could buy their way into fame as an actor or a musician
It always strikes me as absurd - we’re destroying the planet, and none of us are happy - not even the billionaires benefiting from it. Their family lives are a mess, they’re hated (or idolized for things they’re not), and especially now, they probably live in fear of being targeted walking down the street
Predators will share territory if there’s enough to go around, even forming close relationships across species, sometimes even raising their young together
Some predators(and scavengers) have special move “Recruit!”, which allows them to invite members of another guild(species) into their party.
To be fair, with academic types running experiments like this, the question is usually more along the lines of “At what point does instinct become empathy as we would recognize it?”, and depending on how high the criteria is set for empathy there, the level of premeditation may be geniunely surprising in some animals.
Yes, they really do.
Yes
Yes, they do. And Christian types often believe that we have “souls” and animals do not.
The rats don’t live in a system that exacerbates and encourages the worst excesses of the worst people. The rats that don’t help are our billionaires.
Yeah, pick any two humans and put them in a similar situation, and I truly believe that you’ll see similar empathy 99.9% of time time. But that fucking 0.1%, they’re ruthless and they’re rewarded handsomely for that behavior.
they’re rewarded handsomely for that behavior
It’s more just that they aren’t punished for it. They don’t have the empathy to give a shit, and thus will do things regular people won’t. If society doesn’t punish them for being a piece of shit, then there’s no downside to being a piece of shit for them, only upsides from taking advantage of situations others won’t.
A lot harder to punish when you can start making the laws as well. Society won’t just reward them sometimes they will let them write what everyone else should do as well.
This is why you have to introduce the concepts of mimics or demons that have access to change shape. Otherwise the party always frees the chained up maiden in the dungeon without asking any questions. Alternatively, if there is a rogue, you don’t have to worry. They’ll try their best to convince the others that they’ll get xp for stabbing the prisoner.
deleted by creator
You might be curious to find that in many animal species studied, from pack animals down to ants, there is always a large percentage that contribute nothing and are a net-drain on the larger life-structure or colony. Humans and all other forms of life seem to share this commonality.
And yet the groups survive anyway. So does it really matter?
You don’t gotta out yourself like that bud
Rats are more compassionate than insurance companies CEOs.
Cordyceps is more compassionate than insurance company CEOs.
CEOs of publicly traded companies doesn’t have the option to show empathy, they are there to maximize the company value for the shareholders.
Going against that would be a crime.
This is not an excuse for not doing it, this is an explanation of a faulty system.
Insurance companies should not have shareholders.
And not a “that was a bad business move and we’re going to vote to fire you” crime, but an actual white collar prison crime.
It is against US law to prioritize customers (remember, in matters like health insurance, food, and housing, “customers” means literally everyone. you cannot opt out and you must be a customer to live) over shareholders.
Although the term “shareholder fraud” is mostly about CEOs themselves stealing from their shareholders for their personal piggy banks, there are plenty of lawsuits from shareholders claiming the company and/or CEO made decisions that didn’t directly generate value for shareholders or didn’t generate the maximum value it theoretically could have.
Capitalism wants us to believe that it’s the only stable solution, because it comes close to the natural order, and that in nature there is only selfish behaviour, eat or get eaten, homo homini lupus and so on. The truth is, this supposed natural state is completely made up and animals and human beings naturally behave much more selflessly than what is expected from us under capitalism.
Thing is, even the phrase homo homini lupus predates capitalism significantly, and the sentiment dates back to before even the phrase. ‘Naturally behave’ is a very questionable phrase.
We have the ability to be better and build better societies than we currently have under capitalism. I just don’t think an appeal to a state of nature is useful or accurate.
I think there is definitely a line from early modern natural state theory to today’s justification of capitalism, although the argument has somehow reversed itself.
Actual natural behaviour is not even important, since we abandoned that some time ago, and it probably isn’t desirable to go back. Its just easier to sell an ideology when you disguise it as natural order.
I’d say it’s more of an easy to make justification than a real argument. History is incredibly long and full of varied situations in which creatures have survived in many different ways, so it can be mined for examples to support almost anything and claim it to be “natural”.
People didn’t wait for formal capitalism to be assholes.
i did
Ok, but let’s say they is a toy train and it splits into two tracks and put the rat at the lever.
The owners use their captured public education and for profit media to turn us on one another and make us monsters.
They tell us avarice/greed, a well known character deficit and social blight for thousands of years is instead virtuous rational self-interest.
They force us to compete against one another rather than cooperate with one another as the basis of our economy, when an economy is meant to be a lowly tool of society for the explicit use of maximizing the efficient, equitable distribution of goods and services for the benefit of the citizens of the society. Our tail wags the dog. We are slaves to economic growth/metastasis we as a society do not benefit from.
The problem is that the sociopaths, mentally ill people literally incapable of empathy, something most humans have a strong need to exercise, that are among us quickly game society using their mental deficit as an advantage to take more than they need and manipulate others into elevating them, then manipulate those below them into fighting one another perpetually to stay on top.
Humans are social creatures. We’ve been conditioned to act as monsters, condemning our fellow humans literally dying in our streets of exposure and capital defense force brutality as “lowering our property values.”
This isn’t natural. It’s why our nation’s mental health is basically its own apocalypse of mass depression, anxiety, and never ending trauma. We are strongly discouraged from supporting one another, as we’re supposed to do the impossible, pull ourselves up by our bootstraps, then claim we did it alone. That’s the American delusion. 🇺🇸
This really resonates with me. You are an excellent writer.
The part about empathy is so real. A lack of empathy is a real advantage in today’s world, unfortunately. I think empathy should be one of the most important values a society should strive for, and we decided to make a society that rewards sociopathy instead.
Thank you, sincerely.
I know my comment history is basically the same points rehashed over and over as applied to the symptoms of the day we’re experiencing, but it helps me feel like I’m holding onto sanity in an insane society to describe the core rot as I see it, and I appreciate your kind words.
Rats. Can’t use the term as an insult anymore considering they’re more human than we are.
Seems that’s an insult to the rat.
Meanwhile humans, when put thru the same experiment, realize they can make the human in the unpleasant box pay $ if it wants out. They then learn to create more boxes for more profit.
Meanwhile, humans are stuffing other animals into cages to see what happens.
and then murdering them. good point.
ironic that experiment on empathy done by scientists doing mouse experiments.
I dont believe this is inherent. It’s not human nature. Its social conditioning as a result of living in a capitalist society.
In a capitalist society, yes. Absolutely a lot of people would do this. But even then, its not everyone.
I live in capitalism but i would certainly not force someone to pay me to let them out of a trap. Especially if they were suffering. And i would never befriend someone that would.
I would think they were a cunt.
you must suck at capitalism then and would literally never be able to chair a publicly traded company maximizing profits, no matter the cost, for shareholders then. (i say lovingly)
If I’m ever told that I belong on a board of directors at a company, I’m going to Luigi myself. I would have deserved it
I really dont mind sucking at capitalism.
That’s like saying “you suck at giving people cancer” or saying “you are terrible at being a complete dildo”
Yeah. I am fine with that.
And i would never befriend someone that would.
My problem here: many of us are friends with one of the other person that thinks investing money in the stock market is a good idea and taxes for the rich is bad. Those people are already forcing others to pay to get out of a trap, they just have a few middle men.
I mean, we still live in this mess, so investing your money in the stock market is in fact a good idea. We should obviously tax the rich.
No, investing in stocks is a mix of lottery (fair but zero sum) and theft by exploitation of workers, resources & environment.
No, the entire system is built on exploitation of workers. As a worker in the system, I’m talking about how to scrape a life out the best you can.
It’s objectively better to put your money that you want you save and possibly grow in an index fund, if you live in the us.
It is impossible for money to create added value. Inflation adjusted gains in investments are entirely made up by losses of other people and/or wage theft. The oligarchies around the world have lobbied their way into politically mandated investment funds for private pension insurance, thereby ensuring us workers as accomplices in this scam, while they hope we don’t notice that for the breadcrumbs we may earn, we protect their interests - e.g. opposing capital gains taxes.
Investments are theft. And stock traders / investment bankers are thieves who steal from the poor and give to the rich, taking a good margin for themselves. Parasites to mankind.
That’s just not logical man, because first of all it’s the entire basis of the banking system. Money creates money, and your investment in the stock market is essentially similar to a loan offered by a bank. The money you spent buying the stock allows the company to invest more in the business, and you get increased stock value for your trouble.
Maybe you want to be more specific about what you mean by “value”, but it was valuable for me to be able to buy a house without having to pay for it all up front, for example.
You even acknowledge that we workers are forced to be accomplices in this scam, chasing our breadcrumbs. Why would you denigrate those who participate in the system because we have literally no other choice? What is your point? Should I boycott the stock market in the hopes that some oligarch notices?
This comes to my mind:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JFCgz959ARY
After observing all of the animals I’ve ever lived with, I’ve come to the opinion (unsupported, I suppose, by any real evidence) that empathy is an important part of being alive. I think every living being has empathy, and humans just got quite good at beating it out of other humans to the point where displaying psychopathic traits became something culturally celebrated.
We’ve been trained to be this way, and we need to reverse that trend.
I’d say this is the case for mammals and birds, but I think other branches of the tree of life are more hit or miss since they’re less social animals.
I’d be curious to see a study of empathy on octopi, the smartest non-social animal.
Altrusim is a good trait to ensure the survival of a species, while being a selfish bastard is a good trait to ensure the survival of the individual. It all depends on the situation.
But don’t you see all the wealth we are creating by doing things this way?!
Don’t think there has ever been much dispute of a rat’s intellect
I don’t think this was about the intellect either, just about empathy. Sure, the free rat could learn to open it quicker, but the point is that it did. It didn’t eventually figure “eh, nothing in it for me”, it repeatedly went and freed the other to the point of routine.
They’re known to be the only animal on the planet more intelligent than dolphins. IIRC only two of them survived though, while the dolphins all left in time.
That’s mice, you fool!
I wonder about this in animals all the time. Like, many animals seem to really enjoy being loved on and getting scritches, have a relationship with their owner or caregiver, are happy to see them and snuggle up… but in the wild they might be mostly solitary, only interacting with their own kind for mating and maybe raising young. Yet they’re often very different from the (eat sleep reproduce survive) basic wild animal when given the opportunity. They have personalities, happiness, etc.
It’s called domestication. In the Soviet Union a scientist domesticated foxes by selecting for “niceness”. It only took a couple of generations for the typical domestication signs to appear: longer childhood, friendlier face, smartness etc
They’re talking about fully wild animals. Grab a baby squirrel, and it will enjoy human company in no time. Same with raccoons, ravens, mountain lions, etc.
You’d be hard pressed to find an animal that doesn’t take to human companionship when given a real chance. And it has nothing to do with breeding.
Let’s domesticate squirrels then! Not sure how we’ll use them, but we can worry about it later.
Foxes are fully wild animals.
ravens
How about no? Domestication of one of smartest species sounds stupid.
Problem is they then go around quothing.
You’d be surprised.
Yes? But the person I was replying to was talking about a study where an individual was essentially rapidly domesticating them.
Rats, in specific, do what those studying them have described as laugh when being petted/tickled. It’s ultrasonic, so we can’t hear it, but other rats can hear it when a rat is enjoying themselves.
https://www.science.org/content/article/tickled-rats-reveal-brain-structure-controls-laughter
I’ll take the risk of sounding like Willard here, but rats make delightfully playful and affectionate pets.
It sounds counter intuitive but once your rats(need to have at least two) bond to you they treat you like a giant one of them. They’ll groom you for hours, and you can play chase with them with your hands like you would with a kitten(without the scratches!) They’re like a cat and dog together in a much smaller animal. One of mine played fetch.
I just wish they lived longer and weren’t so prone to cancer. Maybe one day science can fix that.
Only 4 or 5 years, right? I don’t think I could handle loving a pet who’s lifespan was that short. But I do know people who have pet rats and they really love them. Doesn’t really surprise me, guinea pigs are similar. And you need to have at least two of them as well.
Yeah, unfortunately they don’t live very long. I actually don’t keep them anymore because it felt like I was setting myself up for heartbreak after awhile.
I’m happy for the experience though! And that doesn’t surprise me about guinea pigs. A lot if people underestimate the intelligence and needs of small pets.
Some dog breeds are trending that way, especially large breeds, anecdotally I know of a bunch of Bernese Mountain Dogs that were 4-5 years due to cancer (which isn’t uncommon), 7-8 is the normal expectancy for them afaik.
I’ve got two brothers we got as kittens, they’re 4 next year, we bond really strongly with animals.
I would never get a purebred dog and that is yet another reason. I have had two mutts live to 14 and another one is 10 now.
Get a mutt and rescue them from a shelter or rescuer. I have not regretted it even if they are little shits. Even the big ones are little shits.
Absolutely agree on that, our cats are rescues and we’d do the same for any dog.
had a Shepard/retriever mutt growing up, by far the longest lived dog I had, her brother was the longest lived of the litter (and the neighbour’s) at like 16. Have family that show for fun, only do it if the dogs enjoy it, I don’t like the way some people talk about their dogs, definitely not a fan of breeding practices in general.
A lot if it is selection bias. Humans prefer animals that show those traits. We instinctively understand how they are thinking/feeling, and that makes us more comfortable with it.
It’s also worth noting that complex mental pathways take a long time to evolve. Nature tends to play with there tuning, rather than strip it out when unnecessary. Most solitary creatures had ancestors that formed groups. There’s no reason to risk breaking useful instincts. They just get overriden by newer ones.
