Don’t forget that most highschools also dropped any trades oriented classes too. So now if you want a decently paying career without a college degree then too fucking bad. They’re trying to eliminate any alternative to the college debt shackle to make their worker drones more easy to manipulate and abuse.
Not sure, but shop classes, carpentry, electrical/plumbing, mechanic, and those such classes were being cut when I was in highschool back in the mid 2000s. I think classes like that are usually what would open kids up to seeing that they may enjoy those trades.
I’ll have to take a look, but I’m sure I have it somewhere, I wrote webpage syllabus for the school back in 2006 or so… So if I have it somewhere it would likely show what classes were left. I got so fed up with flipping around the text based syllabus I created one that was all CSS/JavaScript drop downs and links to the other classes so it would jump back up to them if you needed to figure out prerequisites and actually plan your classes out. I gave it to the school so they could post it on their website and keep it updated. Remember doing it all in school colors, using their backdrop logos for the site and even included a macromedia flash animation that was on a offshoot menu page (because I didn’t want it on the main syllabus so it wouldn’t create slow loading times)
Figure it would help parents/students be able to plan their future courses easier… I’m sure it disappeared soon after I left in 2008
I remember having all that in elementary school when I lived in New Jersey. Moved down to Texas and people looked at me like I was crazy when I explained we were using power tools and kilns and computers in 3rd grade.
Oh no! You don’t get to go anything like that until high school! And this was in one of the wealthier suburbs.
Parents and school boards simply did not want to spend anything close to that kind of money to educate their kids.
We had a little of it in 5th/6th grade in Texas when I was in school, however absolutely nothing in High School, I did have a game dev class hosted by a coach who barely knew how to work a computer. Definitely didn’t just play games during that whole class or anything.
Yeah, you basically need to luck into being hired at a place that’s desperate enough to hire and attempt to train anyone off the street.
As far as the certs go though, at least in the US, most of the 100% legally required certs are pretty easy to get. Our regulators have been so defunded that there is very little effort put into beefing up the requirements. One example is that I’m in HVAC and that means I need my EPA 608 cert to handle refrigerants. I self studied with free online resources for less than a week, paid $80 for an online test, and got my 608 universal cert without issue. It’s actually kinda scary how easy it is to get some of the certifications required to do jobs that have pretty major consequences if you screw them up. The only trade that seems to still have fairly strict requirements as far as training goes is electricians and that seems to be largely due to the unions enforcing it.
You’re not wrong about schools, but also it’s not hard to get into the trades. I’m in the trucking industry so easiest example for me, but any of the big trucking companies will (usually) train you with the only cost being to work for them for a set period of time. Others will reimburse your trucking school costs. I make $70k. Could make more, but I like sleeping at home.
My father in law was a Boilermaker and the union offered on the job training. He was making in the $100k+ range before he passed.
May not be able to get a head start in the trades while in high school anymore, but it’s not difficult to join them. All of the trades are short on bodies to do the work, and as a result, are often quite happy to teach you.
Part of the issue though, and the reason trades are currently so desperate for people, is that it’s never even presented as an option to kids anymore. With most trades you’re going to get far more out of on the job training than you would with formal education anyways. But people need to know that it’s an option. The classes aren’t so much about giving kids a head start but rather about presenting them with the option and letting them see if it would be something they enjoy and could do.
I was lucky in highschool, we still had shop classes and a couple teachers that were passionate about the trades. It was presented as an option. But even then it was presented as an option for losers and outcasts. It was presented as something for those people who were too dumb or broke to go to college like a “normal” person. My dad was a tradesman so I personally knew that wasn’t actually the case but many kids don’t have that and go through school seeing trades as being something you do if you fail.
Like you said, you can get into most of trades fairly easily if you just apply at one of the places desperate enough to try training anyone off the street, which is most of them now a days. But people have to actually apply for those jobs. Right now our highschools not only don’t present them as a realistic option, but they are actively hostile towards anything that isn’t college orriented.
But even then it was presented as an option for losers and outcasts. It was presented as something for those people who were too dumb or broke to go to college like a “normal” person.
At the same time as kids were told “go to college or you won’t have a job”, back in the 90s/00s, lots of industrial jobs were either being shipped overseas or swamped with visa workers and gray market migrant laborers.
Pay in fields like construction, plumbing, and HVAC took a huge hit. So did a bunch of back office IT and accounting work. Pure race to the bottom as businesses consolidated and cartelized hiring rates.
Of course, the same thing was happening in professional management and technical careers. But it’s less obvious you’re getting screwed as a Developer earning $60/hr when your parents earned $120, than as a carpenter earning $25/hr when your parents would have earned closer to $80.
If my school system was typical, and I have no reason to believe it wasn’t, what happened was that individual high schools dropped their trades oriented classes but the school system opened a dedicated vocational/“tech” high school. That means in order to take any such classes you’d have to completely switch schools, or at least drive there halfway through the school day or something. So, on top of having to arrange your own transportation instead of taking the school bus, you’d probably also have schedule conflicts and be forced to choose between the vocational classes and things like gifted/AP academic classes. And finally, you would also be disincentivized against that (at least in my social circle) by the stigma that only the stupid kids who couldn’t hack the normal curriculum, troublemakers, and teen moms would go to an ‘alternative’ school (which was wrong in retrospect, of course, but the key phrase is “in retrospect”).
To add insult to injury, my AP physics class was held in the classroom that used to be for the school’s shop class. In addition to a whole bunch of intriguing CNC equipment and other neat science/engineering doodads scattered around the back and sides of the classroom, there was a huge attached storage room that had all the traditional woodworking power tools. And we never had the opportunity to use fucking any of it!
My school never split off trades classes into their own school. They just stopped hiring teachers for those classes.
But also, yeah I feel your second point. My old highschool still has an entire wing of the building filled with a full machining shop, a very well stocked wood shop, a CAD lab, and an automotive shop which all sit there entirely unused. They didn’t even sell the machines off or move them. They just shut the lights off and stopped using those rooms.
I wonder if it’s really hard to recruit shop teachers now. If the trades are so desperate for people, would it be more lucrative to go into the trades or teach at a school. Also I think most states require a college degree plus credentials to teach at all. So if you worked in the trades until you’re 50 and then wanted to go into teaching, it’s like 5 years of schooling before you can do that. Schools have a lot of trouble getting and retaining male teachers at all at this point and I wonder if that contributes too. If you don’t see male teachers and there’s a stigma attached to men wanting to work with kids, it isn’t going to be something boys aspire to.
Don’t forget that most highschools also dropped any trades oriented classes too. So now if you want a decently paying career without a college degree then too fucking bad. They’re trying to eliminate any alternative to the college debt shackle to make their worker drones more easy to manipulate and abuse.
They have a better one now. H1-Bs. Do what the boss says or you get fucking deported.
Are tech schools still a thing?
The tech schools from my area offered trade focused education paths like plumbing, drafting, auto, hairdressing, and few others.
So you could basically go to them, skip college, and go right into a trade.
I know quite a few people who did that and they seem to be doing okay now.
Not sure, but shop classes, carpentry, electrical/plumbing, mechanic, and those such classes were being cut when I was in highschool back in the mid 2000s. I think classes like that are usually what would open kids up to seeing that they may enjoy those trades.
All arguments about the college situation should start with this info. As a non-american, this sounds so out of fiction that I don’t believe it.
Where and why did they do that? Is there any data showing that they cut trade?
I’ll have to take a look, but I’m sure I have it somewhere, I wrote webpage syllabus for the school back in 2006 or so… So if I have it somewhere it would likely show what classes were left. I got so fed up with flipping around the text based syllabus I created one that was all CSS/JavaScript drop downs and links to the other classes so it would jump back up to them if you needed to figure out prerequisites and actually plan your classes out. I gave it to the school so they could post it on their website and keep it updated. Remember doing it all in school colors, using their backdrop logos for the site and even included a macromedia flash animation that was on a offshoot menu page (because I didn’t want it on the main syllabus so it wouldn’t create slow loading times)
Figure it would help parents/students be able to plan their future courses easier… I’m sure it disappeared soon after I left in 2008
I remember having all that in elementary school when I lived in New Jersey. Moved down to Texas and people looked at me like I was crazy when I explained we were using power tools and kilns and computers in 3rd grade.
Oh no! You don’t get to go anything like that until high school! And this was in one of the wealthier suburbs.
Parents and school boards simply did not want to spend anything close to that kind of money to educate their kids.
We had a little of it in 5th/6th grade in Texas when I was in school, however absolutely nothing in High School, I did have a game dev class hosted by a coach who barely knew how to work a computer. Definitely didn’t just play games during that whole class or anything.
Go through college, fuck it up.
Go to job center.
“We want this specific blue collar job”
How do I get it
“Know the union guy or pay for a certification course”
Thanks fuckhead
Yeah, you basically need to luck into being hired at a place that’s desperate enough to hire and attempt to train anyone off the street.
As far as the certs go though, at least in the US, most of the 100% legally required certs are pretty easy to get. Our regulators have been so defunded that there is very little effort put into beefing up the requirements. One example is that I’m in HVAC and that means I need my EPA 608 cert to handle refrigerants. I self studied with free online resources for less than a week, paid $80 for an online test, and got my 608 universal cert without issue. It’s actually kinda scary how easy it is to get some of the certifications required to do jobs that have pretty major consequences if you screw them up. The only trade that seems to still have fairly strict requirements as far as training goes is electricians and that seems to be largely due to the unions enforcing it.
You should see how little training I was given to literally apply poison in homes and schools as a pest management professional.
You’re not wrong about schools, but also it’s not hard to get into the trades. I’m in the trucking industry so easiest example for me, but any of the big trucking companies will (usually) train you with the only cost being to work for them for a set period of time. Others will reimburse your trucking school costs. I make $70k. Could make more, but I like sleeping at home.
My father in law was a Boilermaker and the union offered on the job training. He was making in the $100k+ range before he passed.
May not be able to get a head start in the trades while in high school anymore, but it’s not difficult to join them. All of the trades are short on bodies to do the work, and as a result, are often quite happy to teach you.
Part of the issue though, and the reason trades are currently so desperate for people, is that it’s never even presented as an option to kids anymore. With most trades you’re going to get far more out of on the job training than you would with formal education anyways. But people need to know that it’s an option. The classes aren’t so much about giving kids a head start but rather about presenting them with the option and letting them see if it would be something they enjoy and could do.
I was lucky in highschool, we still had shop classes and a couple teachers that were passionate about the trades. It was presented as an option. But even then it was presented as an option for losers and outcasts. It was presented as something for those people who were too dumb or broke to go to college like a “normal” person. My dad was a tradesman so I personally knew that wasn’t actually the case but many kids don’t have that and go through school seeing trades as being something you do if you fail.
Like you said, you can get into most of trades fairly easily if you just apply at one of the places desperate enough to try training anyone off the street, which is most of them now a days. But people have to actually apply for those jobs. Right now our highschools not only don’t present them as a realistic option, but they are actively hostile towards anything that isn’t college orriented.
At the same time as kids were told “go to college or you won’t have a job”, back in the 90s/00s, lots of industrial jobs were either being shipped overseas or swamped with visa workers and gray market migrant laborers.
Pay in fields like construction, plumbing, and HVAC took a huge hit. So did a bunch of back office IT and accounting work. Pure race to the bottom as businesses consolidated and cartelized hiring rates.
Of course, the same thing was happening in professional management and technical careers. But it’s less obvious you’re getting screwed as a Developer earning $60/hr when your parents earned $120, than as a carpenter earning $25/hr when your parents would have earned closer to $80.
If my school system was typical, and I have no reason to believe it wasn’t, what happened was that individual high schools dropped their trades oriented classes but the school system opened a dedicated vocational/“tech” high school. That means in order to take any such classes you’d have to completely switch schools, or at least drive there halfway through the school day or something. So, on top of having to arrange your own transportation instead of taking the school bus, you’d probably also have schedule conflicts and be forced to choose between the vocational classes and things like gifted/AP academic classes. And finally, you would also be disincentivized against that (at least in my social circle) by the stigma that only the stupid kids who couldn’t hack the normal curriculum, troublemakers, and teen moms would go to an ‘alternative’ school (which was wrong in retrospect, of course, but the key phrase is “in retrospect”).
To add insult to injury, my AP physics class was held in the classroom that used to be for the school’s shop class. In addition to a whole bunch of intriguing CNC equipment and other neat science/engineering doodads scattered around the back and sides of the classroom, there was a huge attached storage room that had all the traditional woodworking power tools. And we never had the opportunity to use fucking any of it!
My school never split off trades classes into their own school. They just stopped hiring teachers for those classes.
But also, yeah I feel your second point. My old highschool still has an entire wing of the building filled with a full machining shop, a very well stocked wood shop, a CAD lab, and an automotive shop which all sit there entirely unused. They didn’t even sell the machines off or move them. They just shut the lights off and stopped using those rooms.
I wonder if it’s really hard to recruit shop teachers now. If the trades are so desperate for people, would it be more lucrative to go into the trades or teach at a school. Also I think most states require a college degree plus credentials to teach at all. So if you worked in the trades until you’re 50 and then wanted to go into teaching, it’s like 5 years of schooling before you can do that. Schools have a lot of trouble getting and retaining male teachers at all at this point and I wonder if that contributes too. If you don’t see male teachers and there’s a stigma attached to men wanting to work with kids, it isn’t going to be something boys aspire to.