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You know, Dude, I myself dabbled in pacifism once. Not in 'Nam of course.
I’d also like to see more imagery of Jesus smashing up the temple rather than him calmly sitting under a tree.
It’s easy for religious figures to be depicted as tranquil. They are often all-knowing, and if not, have faith in something all-knowing. They can blindly believe that everything will be fine, even if right now things look bad.
Because sky-daddy will take care of things.
This is nothing to do with actual tranquility (in the sense of passaddhi), which is basically the opposite of everything you are describing.
You don’t cultivate tranquility by not knowing “not caring” about worldly factors; you cultivate tranquililty by abandoning the five hindrances (covetousness, ill-will, sloth, agitation, and compulsive questioning).
The Upanisa Sutta says that tranquillity comes from rapture and leads to happiness (the Samaññaphala Sutta repeats this). The precondition for tranquility is rapture, not “not caring about the state of the world”.
Tranquility is a mind that maintains a spacious calm in the face of adverse conditions. It’s nothing like what you’re saying.
Your view is harmful because you’re saying that someone without tranquility (with covetousness, ill-will, sloth, agitation, and compulsive questioning, without rapture), will be better equipped to deal with worldly problems, but the exact opposite is true: tranquility creates the space to deal with worldly problems more effectively. It’s harmful to advocate for hindrances because you claim that means people “care” more.
We are using different definitions of the word.
You explain what your definition is, which affects mine (being the dictionary defintion) in no way whatsoever. We have nothing to discuss.
What you describe I would call stoicism, competence, composure or equanimity.
Most simply, level-headedness.
But not tranquility. Tranquility, by definition, being a state free of turmoil, cannot be maintained, if dealing with turmoil.
Tranquility, by definition, being a state free of turmoil, cannot be maintained, if dealing with turmoil.
Right, but it can and should be maintained while dealing with tumultuous events.
Stoicism, competence, composure, equanimity or level-headedness, can be.
Tranquility, not being a quality of the human mind, but rather a feeling or state of being, cannot be. The dictionary definition of tranquil (free from disturbance) is mutually exclusive with a mind that is actively dealing with concerns of any kind. Because then you are not free of disturbance, are you?
You can remain calm and in control, but if there is force of any kind that you must interact with in any way, you cannot be tranquil.
Can you get there by ignoring any current troubles for a moment, simply not thinking about them for a minute? Yes, but that’s still temporary.
What you are claiming, is like saying silence is the ability to ignore noise.
Or that silence can be “maintained” at a concert. That by refusing to let the music make you dance, you might prevent it being played.
Can you still plug your ears? Sure. But you can’t listen, while doing that.
I struggle to consider myself a pacifist as the paradox of tolerance is a difficult thing to have to come to terms with and I’m fundamentally a flawed human being, but I so fundamentally hate the presumed human cost of “just doing business”. I am filled with a searing, incandescent rage at all times, fueled entirely by the hypocrisy of liberal ideology and the cruelty of conservatives. I’m burning up and trying to avoid melting down just getting through the day, surrounded by people who seemingly willingly refuse to understand nuance on hot issues or that complicated problems oftentimes require complicated solutions. I’m tired, boss.
The thing is, you can be full of rage and still be against violence. Expressing rage doesn’t have to be violent. People express rage in all sorts of non-violent ways, like writing or painting or sculpting.
My biggest weakness and most toxic trait is wanting to see bad people face consequences. That person weaving through traffic at high speeds without a turn signal, with no concern for the safety of everybody else on the road? Please drive off the road, crash, do something that drives home how selfish you are acting, and I hope it’s expensive.
Politician campaigning on hate and saying that religion punishes ‘wicked’ people? I hope a loved one suffers some horrible disease and dies in pain.
Vote for an anti-abortion law? Watch your wife or daughter die of something entirely preventable. Refuse to provide exceptions for rape? Do unto others and all that, you know?
Nazi/christofascist/white supremacist? Worm food. Slowly.
I fix things, that’s my whole driving purpose in life, and basically the only thing I’m particularly good at. I have never been very creative, I suck at writing , I’m not a great artist or sculptor or musician. It causes me so much pain and frustration to not be able to fix something, and so much rage to see people deliberately breaking things, doubly so when they delight in the suffering it causes.
I call this the Paladin Perspective. I want to be a pacifist but I can’t in good conscience call myself that. Because I know that in order to maintain peace there must be not only the open palm of acceptance, but also the closed fist of justice. And I am perfectly willing to administer that fist to someone who has earned it. In order for peaceful folk to remain at peace, there must always be someone standing guard against evil who would seek to exploit them. This has been true throughout all of human history and I don’t exactly expect us to pivot now. So the world needs Paladins. It needs someone willing to wield violence, or at least the threat of it, in the name of Good. The police force is supposed to fill this role but they’ve fallen from grace. Religious leaders have filled this role before in the past, but they too have fallen from grace. Lacking either of those or a suitable surrogate, some people take matters into their own hands. Sometimes this leads to a glorious revolution in which power is seized from evil and the evil is ousted. More often this leads to a cell, in some fashion or another.
So it bothers me, because on one hand, I dream of a world without suffering. A world completely without suffering, where no sort of guardian would be required. But I feel in my heart that that is impossible. So instead, where that dream should be, is instead a wish to punish wrongdoers. At the heart of things when I sit down and inspect who I really am, I want to hurt bad people. I want to punch nazis. I want to defend my people from Proud Boys with my right to bear arms. I want to beat the ass off every sitting US politician except for Bernie Sanders and I want to host a cookout for everyone with a net worth higher than $5M. These things invoke a sort of sick schadenfreude that I didn’t really know was in me, and it’s hard to square that with my desire for a free and safe world where no one has to suffer. I’ve been watching myself getting radicalized in real time over the last 8 years, and if I were someone less attentive to my internal state, I might not have ever noticed and taken steps to reign it in. Sometimes I feel it would be more morally correct not to reign it in. But I do no good to anyone in prison so I stay out of trouble.
It’s just a weird dichotomy, wishing fervently for a world without senseless violence but knowing damn well we’re going to require some sensible violence if we want to make it there. I would hope that all those who choose violence in service of good would share my same desire that it not become necessary. I know that’s not true, but a man can dream. But what it comes down to at the end of the day is, folks who say “violence is never the answer” are incorrect. It absolutely is a solution, one that solves most problems in fact, it’s just the last solution on the list. I will make every effort possible to talk and debate and deal and wheedle and compromise within reason, but when it becomes clear that violence is the path forward, I’m not afraid of that path. Woe be upon he who stands in the way of progress.
Does this make me a bad person? Does this make me no better than those I claim to oppose? In my opinion, which I respect, I’d say no. But truth is I don’t really know. If raising the sword in service of those who cannot makes me a bad person, then I think I’ll just have to learn to live with that. Because I can’t not do it. I will not stand aside and watch torture fall upon the backs of the innocent without meeting like with like. And if that makes me evil then I will stand tall for my own punishment when it comes due.
I still like the Doctor Who take on it. “Demons run when a good man goes to war.”
Demons run when a good man goes to war
Night will fall and drown the sun
When a good man goes to war
Friendship dies and true love lies
Night will fall and the dark will rise
When a good man goes to war
Demon’s Run, but count the cost
The battle’s won but the child is lostNothing good happens when a good man goes to war
But I also like the saying “If you want peace prepare for war”. War is not the right choice, but it’s seldom yours.
But I also like the saying “If you want peace prepare for war”.
It’s the cornerstone of the Security Dilemma: Increasing your own state’s security by increasing military strength may be threatening to other states that don’t know whether you’re just improving defenses or gearing up for an offensive war.
Particularly in pre-modern times where land was more valuable (compared to developing the land you already have) and battle wasn’t so destructive, war was more profitable, the threat was real. With the development of modern arms and mass mobilisation escalating the scale and destruction of war, the distinction between defensive and offensive militarisation is even harder to tell, and even though it’s not as lucrative, we haven’t outgrown the martial impulses so the issue remains.
So because you want to be safe, you improve your military. Because you improve your military, your neighbour fears for their own safety, so they improve theirs. This is why international relations and diplomacy are so important to prevent a runaway arms race.
Yes, its a very sad dilemma.
I believed for quite a long time (living in Germany) that this state of “peace by codependency” could be extended, even maybe applied worldwide, but I’m not so sure anymore. I still want this to be true, however.
But a defenseless state is still a very nice target. I’m not so blind as to miss both sides of the US protection, and the limitations and freedoms that come with it.
I think we - collectively, as humanity, not any particular subgroup - need to get over that greedy, jealous, tribal “us vs. them” mindset that feeds nationalism, turns demographies against each other and leads to that security dilemma in the first place.
It made sense when our individual survival hinged on competing for the best land, subsequently forming groups to further that claim and drive others from their land to increase your own margin of subsistence.
But with modern farming, logistics, administrative capabilities and real-time communications across the globe, I think we should be able to do better by working together instead of against each other.
Of course, that would require people who like power to stop reaching for more and more, and that is an issue I don’t think I need to lay out in detail.
living in Germany
Your username and instance kinda gave it away, comfortable cushion ;-)
Forming groups is still important. We need it to find our place in the world. There is no single truth, therefore we argue and fight.
Not saying anything you said is wrong, btw. Just wanted to state why we still have this stuff.Your username and instance kinda gave it away, comfortable cushion ;-)
Just wanted to make it clear that I don’t have an american POV :)
Forming groups is still important. We need it to find our place in the world. There is no single truth, therefore we argue and fight.
Absolutely. Forming groups defined by commonality is good. Discussions are important to check our own biases and misconceptions. Diversity is key to avoiding stagnation. Conflict can create opportunity for growth.
War, above all else, destroys. There are many great things we can do with each other that don’t involve violence.
Not saying anything you said is wrong, btw. Just wanted to state why we still have this stuff.
Good point, adding nuance is important.
Yeah, although the Doctor is pretty hypocritical with his pacifism. Something which this quote sums up pretty well. He did kill several species after all.
The Doctor doesn’t call himself a pacifist, he just detests violence. If needed though, he will absolutely blow your shit up.
The other quote to go with that one was “Good men don’t need rules, you’re about to find out why I have so many.”
