This is an opportunity for any users, server admins, or interested third parties to ask anything they’d like to @nutomic@lemmy.ml and I about Lemmy. This includes its development and future, as well as wider issues relevant to the social media landscape today.
Note: This will be the thread tmrw, so you can use this thread to ask and vote on questions beforehand.
Right now, instances with transphobic and racist content like exploding-heads are still listed on join-lemmy.org. Are you planning to implement a Server Convenant like on joinmastodon.org? To be listed on joinmastodon.org, an instance needs “Active moderation against racism, sexism, homophobia and transphobia”.
The instance list is fine as is. Think about it like this: do you want racists to join a single instance so they are all in one place? Or do you want them to spread across all different instances, causing moderation problems everywhere?
Yes, I think it would be best if they would all gather on one instance that can get defederated. Right now they attract users on join-lemmy with “Use humor and facts to hold the ruling class accountable”, no other info.
Hey Menu, I don’t know if you were one of the ones that downvoted me or not, but I was wondering if you might be able to help me understand why people think the option to shadowban is such a bad idea?
Edit: What is going on here?! Someone please have mercy and explain…
I think you got downvoted because people were not looking for a way to make it ok for the racist instances to stay on join-lemmy.
I am not really familiar with shadowbannig, but users could just check their posts from another instance and find out about the ban.
Thank you for replying!
users could just check their posts from another instance and find out about the ban.
That wouldn’t be the point, but I don’t believe anyone cares to hear the details. No problem, I understand that.
people were not looking for a way to make it ok for the racist instances to stay on join-lemmy.
Neither was I, of course. Thank you for this peek into the mentality.
i would rather want the racists to not be able to go anywhere at all
It doesnt really matter what you want. The software is open source so anyone can use the software freely. No way to prevent it.
yea sure there will always be racist instances but they shouldn’t be promoted on sites like join-lemmy.org
And if the racist is here to cause problems rather than commiserate with fellow racists, they now know exactly which community to avoid, thus restoring moderation problems everywhere. I don’t think anyone is asking you to moderate every instance to ensure they are sticking to your TOS or your viewpoints, but it’s a very minor ask to not showcase off the racists and transphobes and bigots on the ‘join this platform’ page.
There are plenty of other instance lists across the internet. So its not even a real solution for your theoretical problem.
I don’t think the people raising this as a concern are trying to solve the problem of bigots on the internet; they are just asking for you to change the advertising you provide to remove the bigots from a place of visibility.
And then we should block lemmygrad, lemmy.world, hexbear and hundreds of other instances? Thats not gonna happen. If you want to block instances, do that on the beehaw side.
I’m not here to proselytize about what we decide to block or not. I’m explaining what the person above is requesting - not a block, but a conscious decision about what shows up on the join-lemmy list.
I’m new to the fediverse, and even I can tell you’re missing the point.
It’s possible that anti-racist, queer or any other serious organisations might not want to link to join-lemmy.org because of it.
Thats fine, they can provide their own list of instances where users can choose from.
They are on your list (which is seen as the official one by many and has most visits) to guide transphobes and fascists to their fitting community?? Exploding-heads is not labeled as transphobe and fascist on join-lemmy. So that does’t make sense.
Wasnt free speech all about being able to express your opinion without getting banned?
No. It’s about being able to voice your opinion without going to jail for it. No one is going to jail for making transphobic memes or comments. But that doesn’t protect them from me blocking them or banning them from my instance.
Ok fair enough. But (outside of the context) defederating/banning certain communities because they don’t have the same beliefs as you can lead to a fully opinionated/based fediverse and should be prevented imo. Everybody should be able to express their opinions no matter what. I don’t want lemmy to change into some kind off mass media like everything else rn. If a post isn’t showing a good/kind, people respecting vibe, it will be downvoted and thus not shown to anybody. And later if lemmy creates an algorithm of some kind, these posts can be ghosted for certain individuals. But i don’t think they should be completely removed and banned from the connected fediverse as this platform is one of the only ways to express ourselves online at this point. I hope i could get my point across
Defederation doesn’t prevent them from being able to access the fediverse nobody has a right to harassing people thats like saying you are being discriminated against because you aren’t allowed in the public park because you throw garbage everywhere and spray paint the children’s play equipment but it’s a public park my rights
What type(s) of transphobia?
Here are some examples on exploding-heads.com and rammy.site though I kinda doubt you don’t know about them. Their members frequently harass trans and queer communities as well.
Warning trans/queerphobic
https://exploding-heads.com/post/635111 https://exploding-heads.com/post/635113 https://exploding-heads.com/post/635122 https://exploding-heads.com/post/627109 https://exploding-heads.com/post/628678 https://exploding-heads.com/post/627044 https://exploding-heads.com/post/630190 https://exploding-heads.com/post/191408 https://exploding-heads.com/post/618400 https://rammy.site/c/saynotogroomers
Have you considered a feature like “sibling community”?
What I mean is, for example, car community on server 1 marks itself as a sibling community to a car community on server 2. Similarly server 2 marks itself as a sibling community to server 1, ie it is two-way.
When communities have been linked bi-directionally, any post and comment are shared between the two sibling communities.
This would allow bigger communities to form out of smaller communities, thereby preventing discussions from being fragmented and showing the true size of Lemmy, across servers.
We have an open issue for collections of communities, but not for any complicated trees of communities. Creating and linking community trees sounds really complicated, and I don’t know how all that would work.
I don’t know how the code is currently working, but I like this feature idea and would suggest to start very simple and proceed from there.
For example you could: a) Make a list of communities that are siblings with their id and instance b) add a toggle to view sister community posts yes /no c) query all communities, list the last x posts from each with time constraints, e.g. not older than 1 day or hour depending on the community post frequency d) list them sorted by time of x , depending on what was chosen
The biggest issue I see with this simple approach, besides others, is that different communities are different in terms of activity / post frequency. So ideally the better, but more effort, way would be to let each community instance communicate their posts themselves via a query with activity metric parameters. Basically the amount of returned posts would depend on common parameters set by the most active instance.
It’s not yet thought out, but just getting an mvp started and test the waters would probably be better than having it perfect right away while working on it for months
pretty good idea, i figure moderators would be shared between communities?
I’m not asking anything because I’m a potato when it comes to software. I just wanted to drop by and say: thank you both for Lemmy. The platform is amazing, and it’s clear that you guys are pouring some heavy love (and labour hours) in it, as it’s improving at an amazing pace.
Thanks! We’re glad ppl are finding Lemmy useful, and enjoying using it!
What’s your oppinion on lemmy being used by a few hundreds of people for quite some time and then recently exploding overnight with new instances and tens of thousands of new users. That certeinly changed some things…
It was definitely a difficult struggle. I’ve elaborated below on how wrecked I was for ~ 2 months.
I’m gonna be asking hard questions, I think, sorry about that. I hope you consider it tough love considering our past interactions.
As an instance admin, I have some questions:
-
How are you doing? I know there was a lot of pressure when things blew up and it seems to be calming down a bit now.
-
How is Lemmy doing financially?
-
Considering past releases and their associated breaking bugs (including 0.18.3), what measures are you taking to help prevent that?
-
Can we consider the possibility of downgrades being supported?
-
Why are bugs affecting moderation not release blockers? Does anything block releases?
-
Are there plans to give instance administrators a voice in shaping the future of Lemmy’s development?
As someone who is trying to help with Lemmy’s development, I have some other questions:
- What do you think are the biggest problems with Lemmy as a software project and what are your priorities for Lemmy?
- Considering fairly low amounts of developers contributing to Lemmy, how are you working to help new people get into the project?
- Do you worry about the message it sends to potential contributors when the main developers are working on a different project which competes with the former? (Example: Lemmy-ui vs Lemmy-ui-Leptos)
- Considering most work is done voluntarily, how are you trying to organize and prioritize work?
- Do you believe you are stretching yourself too thin between Lemmy, Lemmy-ui, Lemmy-ui-leptos, Jerboa and Lemmy.ml? If so, what are you doing to help you focus?
Alright second part:
- The biggest problem is definitely that there are too many things to do, but only the two of us working on it fulltime. The day only has so many hours and its impossible to keep up with everything. Thats why community contributions are really important.
- The amount of contributors is very high compared to a few months ago, its not easy to keep up with all the pull requests. Its going to take some time for processes to adjust to the new scale, and for new contributors to learn how everything works.
- This is a question for @dessalines@lemmy.ml
- People work on whatever they are passionate about. Generally that works quite well.
- I am only working on Lemmy and thats already a lot. So another question for @dessalines@lemmy.ml
Wow lots of questions here.
- Im doing well, its exciting to know that so many people like the software Ive worked on for the last years. The first month after the migration was really stressful, but by now its calmed down a lot. Plus there are many contributors now which are helping a lot.
- Unfortunately the user donations are just barely enough to pay our salaries, by my calculations the income from Liberapay, Patreon and Open Collective is around 4000 USD per month. Luckily we still have some NLnet funding left, and should be able to work on those milestones now that things have calmed down. I hope the user donations will increase so that they can pay us proper salaries. Maybe even hire additional people, but that seems very optimistic now. It would also be good if we could find other funding sources besides NLnet, as its not clear if they will fund us another year.
- I think the “breaking bugs” were really minor considering how we had to constantly rush out performance and security fixes. This should get better as we dont need to make emergency fixes, and have more time to let the community test release candidates before making the full release.
- Supporting downgrades means that someone has to test them and report/fix problems. We dont have time for that, but feel free to do it.
- Like I said, our recent releases had urgent performance/security fixes so we didnt have enough time for testing. We also didnt find out about these problems until later. Part of the problem is that keeping up with issues is almost a full-time job on its own, so I rarely read them anymore. If you see something important reported, do let me know.
- No concrete plans, but I definitely think that admins are the main actors who should have a voice in development. Its impossible for us to listen to all the individual users, because there are too many and they often dont have the necessary technical knowledge. If you have some ideas how to facilitate communication between devs and admins, let me know.
Are we almost done? Nope, only halfway. Will answer the second half a bit later.
-
How well do you think the federation model is working, in terms of cultural dynamics, more defederations than I would have expected to see, etc.? I’m not counting technical glitches that I assume will get sorted out over time.
Any plans for improving SEO? One of Reddit’s biggest strengths was being able to get very relevant results with a simple internet search. In time can you see something similar for Lemmy, even with its decentralized nature? I really you for doing this, thank you for your time!
Lemmy-ui supports SEO, and also has opengraph tags. If there’s anything else needs to be added, we’re open to PRs.
Side note: For me personally, as @FrostySpectacles@lemmy.ml suggested, SEO shouldn’t be a focus. SEO is such a gamed system, catering to a few giant search companies, and results are increasingly becoming unusable, especially in the past few years. I can barely find the things I want to search for, and almost always have better luck using internal sites search engines. So I’d rather focus on improving lemmy’s search capabalities and filtering, than catering to google.
Lemmy is currently pretty terrible at SEO, in large part because the comments don’t load until the JS has run.
This isn’t just a problem for search engines, it affect things like archive.org and offline reading. Earlier today I loaded a page from an instance that had dropped offline - while they had Cloudflare Always Online enabled, the page loaded without comments so it was almost useless.
I think it’s a mistake to consider all the SEO-related concerns as irrelevant just because you don’t care about Google, etc. Most of the things necessary for good SEO are just good practices, with benefits for all users, especially in the areas of accessibility and third-party tools.
Lemmy-ui uses isomorphic rendering so comments do come loaded (just not all of them) on the first page you visit, no javascript needed. Did you mean it should serve all comments?
Seconding this. In addition to the accessibility, etc benefits, just think about the sheer amount of traffic/users that came from people googling a completely unrelated topic and having reddit pop up. Those are users that might not have otherwise found the platform.
Would you please consider having only local post/community/users indexed by search engines? A lemmy.ml user complained that their username is first result on Google with lemmynsfw.com domain name. Also implementing this would decrease chance of duplicate content.
It can resolved with a simple noindex meta tag.
I’d be open to a PR for that, sure.
I hate Inferno (specifically class components) but I’ll check what I can do 🙏
I do too now (I created lemmy-ui when react was king), which is why the new UI will be written in leptos, using signal-based reactivity, and functional components.
I second this. I know SEO is a controversial term with Lemmy’s core audience, but being able to find posts through a search engine is pretty darn helpful. It’ll also help more people find their way to Lemmy, which will diversify the range of communities.
If you’re not sure where to start, Google’s free Search Console can give you insight into how your site ranks, how people are finding you and which factors are preventing instances from appearing in search.
First, just want to say thanks for building and maintaining Lemmy. It’s an incredible project, and it provides an incredibly valuable public forum that’s completely open. This is the way internet was always meant to work before it got hijacked by corporations.
The questions I’d like to ask would be whether the platform is developing in the way you originally envisioned, what surprised you in terms of how the platform ended up being used in the wild, and what were the biggest technical and non technical problems that came from the rapid growth after the Reddit migration. And finally, how would you like the platform to evolve going forward, and what your long term vision is.
I mostly imagined the slow but steady growth we’d been having, and def didn’t anticipate that reddit would mess up so badly that a massive chunk of users would migrate from a multi-million dollar enterprise software, to a hobby project developed by a couple of marxist-leninists 🤣 . But so it goes, with all these late-capitalist social media companies alienating their users, monetizing them in any way possible in search of declining surplus.
The biggest non-tech problem, is just the overwhelming amount of notifications. Companies have multiple layers between devs and users, to separate, order, and create a more controlled explosion. That doesn’t exist here, so we get hundreds of notifications every day, with everyone treating us as their personal issue tracker… and I basically would get nothing done if all I did was respond to them. Luckily things are calming down a bit now.
The biggest tech-problem was the performance and security issues of so many users joining the network all at once, and luckily we had so many wonderful community contributions to help stabilize that.
And finally, how would you like the platform to evolve going forward, and what your long term vision is.
We should be ambitious, and wantthe fediverse as a whole, on the long term, to replace big-tech. Every user we draw away from them, is one less person exploited for their data and treated as a commodity.
Technically, I’d just like us to continue making the software better, maintaining the code, and adding features.
The point regarding notifications is really important. Managing a popular open source project can be really overwhelming in that regard, and it’s easy for individual users to forget that it’s only a couple of people dealing with all their issues on the other end.
People stepping up and contributing is a great development. Community involvement is key for the success of open source platforms in my opinion.
And love the long term vision, I completely agree that the fediverse replacing corporate platforms would be the ideal scenario in the future. From what I can see, fediverse has already reached the point of sustainability. It’s still niche compared to mainstream platforms, but I think it’s clear that it can exist in its current form indefinitely. And I think this provides an important advantage over corporate platforms. Commercial companies have to continuously demonstrate profit and growth to their shareholder or die. This means having to constantly chase new ways to attract new users and monetize the platform leading to the sort of behaviors we see happening with Reddit. On the other hand, open platforms can grow slowly and sustainably. This allows the fediverse to evolve on a completely different time scale. I’m optimistic that the fediverse will likely outlive every single corporate platform that’s around today.
Thanks again for all the hard work you’re doing, it’s very much appreciated!
To be honest I never had any long-term vision, and still dont have. I just thought that decentralized software in general and Activitypub in particular is very exciting and lets us take power away from corporations like Reddit, Google, Facebook etc.
Biggest technical problem was implementing Activitypub, when I started there was no implementation in Rust yet, and it was very hard to find detailed information how everything is supposed to work. Over the years I had to rewrite the federation code at least 4-5 times, each time making it a bit cleaner.
Biggest nontechnical challenge is dealing with all the people who are suddenly joining and want to contribute, so that it doesnt turn into total chaos. Luckily there are many helpful community members who helped to organize things. Another challenge is with funding, now we dont have as much time to work on the paid NLnet milestones. And its not clear if NLnet will grant us another funding round once this is over. Hopefully the user donations will grow over time so that they can cover our full salaries.
Thanks again for all the work you’re doing on the project, and hopefully the funding situation will continue being sustainable after the NLnet grants run out. It would be great if community manages to step up and fully cover the salaries through donations. It’s been an exciting ride using Lemmy and seeing the community grow. I can’t wait to see what the next few years will bring!
Sorry, no question, only: Thank you for your hard work :)
o7. Glad to be of service
-
Is there a plan to improve search and federating communities between instances? My biggest hurdle joining and using Lemmy was without a doubt the search functionality and subscribing to a community on my own instance, it was severely off-putting. Let me walk you through it: you find a community you like, say !vinyl@sopuli.xyz. You paste it into the search of your instance, as instructed. It immediately tells you “No results”. If you don’t click off, sometimes it changes it’s mind within a few seconds. Sometimes it never loads. You try manually creating the URL by going to example.com/c/vinyl@sopuli.xyz but it gives you an error. If you’re lucky it works the next day, if you’re not then I don’t actually know the next step. Not to mention the lack of feedback on subscribing to communities. I have “subscribed” to communities before then realised a week later that despite appearing in my list of subs it didn’t actually work and I have to redo, the only feedback you get is “pending”. This is the #1 issue that stops me from recommending Lemmy, or at least smaller instances that haven’t federated with much yet. Is the search a priority?
-
I know you’ve been asked about splitting NSFW already, but is there any chance of a specific NSFL tag or a generic spoiler/blur tag? Gore and nudity are such different topics they really don’t deserve to be under the same banner.
-
Are proper inline previews something on the roadmap? What I mean is items like YouTube videos, Streamable links, and just about anything that isn’t a Lemmy image is not expandable and requires leaving the website. It’s one of my most missed features from old Reddit with RES.
I read as much of the thread as possible, so hopefully these are new questions. Hope I didn’t come across too negative here as I’ve been enjoying my time overall and I know y’all have been swamped these months and never expected this popularity.
-
Any thoughts on overhauling cross-posting, to allow more interaction with the source interaction?
As far as I’m aware: currently when you cross-post, only the recipient instance gets all interactions (comments, upvotes), instead of duplicating to or having the origin solely receive those.
The current implementation hampers the growth of smaller instances when reposting something to a bigger one. Discoverability is still there due to seeing from which instance the post originates from, but that’s arguably not enough.
Cross-posting is for posting to other communities, so it depends all on where the community you’re posting to lives, for who will see it.
Just a suggestion, but a short term UI/UX solution for this might be as simple as a badge or label suggesting that X instance is defederated from Y instance and that the users content will only be visible to their home instance.
For me the whole point of fediverse is not depending on a single party for your socials/subs. But the current climate in each instance forces users to have accounts in multiple instances.
As a Lemmy user I believe account migration should be a default Lemmy feature which enables true federation for end users. Any plans for this feature in the near future?
We have some open issues for account migration. But ideally, you shouldn’t have to sign up on multiple instances. I imagine the main reason people are creating multiple accounts are:
- Their chosen server blocks other ones they’d like to interact with. In that case they should make the new one their home.
- Stability issues because people are joining the larger servers instead of smaller ones. This one can be improved both by our performance additions, and also by doing are best to highlight smaller servers on places like join-lemmy.org , so that people join them instead.
@nutomic@lemmy.ml, can’t reply to the thread here because the user was defed from us which is a pretty frustrating design for the purposes of reading a whole thread from another instance, but i’d just like to say that if you don’t self crit here you need to delete your avatar, maybe upload a picture of spez instead, because he says the same shit :) like a lot of your other posts but by god this is liberal shit that basically no one wants to see
Thanks for both of your work on Lemmy, join-lemmy, lemmy-ui and Jerboa.
- Can you tell us about any upcoming major features/issue resolutions in development currently, if there are any?
- Will Lemmy have any form of cross-instance community/post grouping, similar to multi-reddits, hashtags, “alliances” or categories? Although some Lemmy apps have implemented something along those lines, it could be more fully-implemented in the official backend/frontend. I’ve been thinking Lemmy has desparately needed it to help solve some of the fragmentation problems across instances. It would also help avoid one instance necessarily having all the content, ballooning in both running costs and control.
- The best way is to look at the open PRs on each repo, to see the things that are being worked on / fixed.
- We have an open issue for community collections, but its not being worked on currently. We have
cross_postscome back through theGetPostendpoint, to see where else specific posts have been posted to.
The fragmentation issues I’ve addressed here.
Alright thanks for the answers! I’ve looked through them, and maybe I was looking for more of what you thought personally of what major features you had in mind. Rather, it sounds like (but don’t let me put words in your month) you’re more focused on just keeping the overall work together and stable. I can respect that.
As far as some longer-term goals, I posted this elsewhere, but some are:
- Performance improvements (DB, federation code)
- Creating a better onboarding site (joinlemmy)
- Stabilizing the API
- Becoming fully funded by donations, and growing our dev co-op.
- Lots of code maintenance
- Notifications (Unified push)
- Better sorting to push content from smaller communities (a best sort)
- A better web UI written in rust (lemmy-ui-leptos)
I don’t really have any questions at the moment, just passing by to thank you for making this great product/service.
After the Reddit fiasco I felt like my internet life would be empty, then I saw a thread on /r/FREEMEDIAHECKYEAH about they joining here and making an instance, so that’s why I’m here now (not with them at the moment).
Then I started to be more active here than on Reddit until today which my Reddit account is basically forgotten.
I have read many of your answers and I can’t wait until that “best” sorting comes out!
I wasn’t very active in the biggest communities of Reddit because my likings which are a bit smaller (I don’t think niche) than the big masses.
Thanks again for your hard work!
Thats good to hear, Im glad you like it!
